Have you been hurt by people in the Church?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:06] Speaker B: Welcome back to the Nomad Pastor Podcast. It's Rick and Rob, and we're glad you're here. How you doing? [00:00:12] Speaker A: I'm good. How are you? [00:00:13] Speaker B: I'm pretty good. Pretty good. It's cold outside. [00:00:15] Speaker A: Got chilly today. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Somebody left the air conditioner and the ceiling fan on. [00:00:19] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll tell you what, though. Yeah. We rode to the mission Sunday night. It was about 50. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:25] Speaker A: You know, I love my bike. I mean, it blocks wind like I've never had before. [00:00:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:36] Speaker A: You know, because the. On the Indian, the lower fairings come up a lot more. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, they do. And really do. [00:00:42] Speaker A: You know, I turn those heated grips on that heated seat, I don't feel nothing. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Cadillacing. [00:00:49] Speaker A: It's just like Cadillac. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Oh, speaking of lowers, I got. I got a full set of lowers. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Okay. [00:00:56] Speaker B: And got them put on. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Nice. [00:00:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I still hadn't ridden it yet. I mean, it's just been a couple weeks ago, but. Yeah. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:03] Speaker B: And it's been. You know, with all the rain and all the junk and everything, it's. It's just been. And I'm not a fair weather rider, you know. Get that out of your head, people. You know, riding the rain, riding the cold, you know, I just. We just hadn't gone anywhere. [00:01:17] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, the easiest way to explain is you're not a fair weather rider is your bike's had it four months. [00:01:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:23] Speaker A: How many miles you got on? [00:01:24] Speaker B: 7,900. [00:01:25] Speaker A: Yeah. See, that's not a fair number. Right. You have more miles on your bike than some people do when they've owned it for 10 years. [00:01:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. 7900 miles in four months. [00:01:37] Speaker A: I think I'm just getting ready to hit 11,000. I've had it a year. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:40] Speaker A: Here in four months or something. I also travel a lot. [00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, this year I. I did. Total miles for the club was just under 15,000. [00:01:54] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:01:55] Speaker B: Just under. So it was a good year. Yeah, it was a good year between two bikes. So. Hey, we want to talk about. I want to talk about church hurt today. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Which I think starting. Because, you know, this is going to air in the new year. I think starting the new year. This is a great topic. [00:02:10] Speaker B: I think so. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Right? [00:02:11] Speaker B: I think so. [00:02:12] Speaker A: You know, people that are church hurt. What does church hurt mean? And how do you deal with that? [00:02:17] Speaker B: Right, right. And there's. There's a whole lot of things that get thrown in under the umbrella of church hurt that probably shouldn't be. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:29] Speaker B: You know, I praise God for our new church. [00:02:34] Speaker A: I feel the exact same way. Right. I think we've been going to our church for at least a couple years now. [00:02:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Just everybody we've met. Amazing. [00:02:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And with. Of course, we go to the Warehouse Fellowship now. [00:02:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:52] Speaker B: That's where we go to church. And we know it was crazy because the first time we went there, you know, we're expecting to know one couple there, and then we get there, and we're like, oh, we know you and. [00:03:06] Speaker A: Know you and know you and know you. [00:03:07] Speaker B: And this. This congregation is a culmination of different congregations. [00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Right. So a lot of people have come from other churches and other things, and in conversations that I've had with our pastor and administrative pastor. [00:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Have come to find out that there are a lot of people at the Warehouse that are dealing with church hurt. And. And it's a real thing. I'm not trying to negate it, and I feel like I am, to a certain extent, you know, dealing with some of that. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:47] Speaker B: One of the things that I put under this umbrella with church hurt is not just how easily we're offended, but how easily our spirits are provoked to dry up because of church hurt. [00:04:08] Speaker A: Yeah. If you were to define church, I think there's a lot of levels to it like you've talked about, but what would your definition of church? [00:04:19] Speaker B: So I would answer that question in a twofold answer. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Okay. So let me give a general description in the first part of the answer, and then I want to give a little bit more detailed, specific. So in church hurt, for me, for what most people look at, it's a time where we've been offended, a time where we've been hurt, a time where our feelings have been negated or hurt or whatever. To go a little bit deeper in that, for me, church hurt is something that keeps us from either fulfilling what God has called us to or walking away from God. And I think too many times we allow the minor part of it, where our feelings get hurt, to allow. So many people have allowed that to walk away from God. [00:05:24] Speaker A: I agree with that. [00:05:25] Speaker B: And I think because of that, the definition of church hurt and the way that church hurt people are treated becomes kind of a spectacle. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah. When I think of church hurt, I don't think of church as in the community of Christ. I think of church hurt as in the people in the building that you go to. [00:05:55] Speaker B: I agree. 100% agree. 100% agree. [00:05:59] Speaker A: So that's why I asked what your definition would be, because I think it's important to talk about. There's a Difference between church as in the body of Christ. Right. The community of Christians versus the place you congregate on Sunday. [00:06:15] Speaker B: Right. I agree. [00:06:16] Speaker A: I think there are two different distinctive things. [00:06:18] Speaker B: Yes. I 100% agree. 100% agree. And because of that and because of the distinction that we just made, I think it's important for us to remember that people. And you hear the saying all the time, hurt people, hurt people. Yeah, Right. And I think it's important for us to remember. We'll say that way. I think it's important for us to remember that because we are all broken, because we are all frail human beings, you know, that it's easy sometimes for hurt people to hurt people, especially inside the four walls of a church. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah. And I also think people for, like, they have short memories. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:12] Speaker A: Right. Like you. If you break your arm, you don't wait for your arm to heal before you go to the hospital. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Right. Yeah. [00:07:21] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:07:22] Speaker A: And I think sometimes people who have been a member for a long time forget that they were broken and they're still broken. [00:07:33] Speaker B: Sure. [00:07:34] Speaker A: Right. But they forget that they were there and they have this unrealistic expectation of the people who come to church. [00:07:43] Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Well, you're here. [00:07:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:47] Speaker A: I should be able to tell you you're going to go to hell if you keep doing that. [00:07:51] Speaker B: And look, that's not. So let's. Let's start with that. That statement. Right. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Well. And I think that kind of goes into where we're going to go with scripture. [00:08:00] Speaker B: It does. It does. But let's start with that statement. You're here. I should be able to tell you you're going to score. So I am 100% on the belief that you can't judge my salvation. [00:08:19] Speaker A: Oh, it's 100%. [00:08:22] Speaker B: And we have talked about this multiple times on this podcast over the years. [00:08:26] Speaker A: Multiple times this morning. [00:08:29] Speaker B: We did. We talked about this morning group. We absolutely did. But I am also of the opinion and the belief and the. And, and of the operation of. If I see you in a act of. Or something that I realize could jeopardize your relationship with God, I'm not going to be the one that sits back and says, oh, you're okay, Rick. Everything's fine. Just, do you live your best life? Here's my point. With that, we go from you can't judge me to you can't tell me I'm sinning. [00:09:16] Speaker A: That's right. [00:09:17] Speaker B: And we have put those two things together, and we have. And as a church body, I'm not saying Rick or I'M not saying Rob has done this, but we've gone from, you know, you can't judge me to you can't tell me I'm sinning. And because you told me that I'm in the act of sin right now, I'm church hurt. And there is nothing further from the actual definition of church hurt than somebody's upset because you've called me out. [00:09:53] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right, right. [00:09:55] Speaker B: Or I've called you out. [00:09:56] Speaker A: Well, because the Bible's clear. [00:09:58] Speaker B: Right. [00:09:58] Speaker A: I think, you know, it never says. I mean, it does say, do not judge or you will be judged or whatever. Right. But that's not what it's talking about. [00:10:09] Speaker B: No, no. Which one are you looking for? [00:10:16] Speaker A: I don't know if it's the right one. So before I say it, let me look it up. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Look it up. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Look it up. Yeah, it doesn't really make sense. So I'm like, let me think about this. And it's not the one I was thinking about. [00:10:33] Speaker B: Okay. [00:10:34] Speaker A: But, you know, in Matthew 18:15, it says, now, if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses, every matter may be confirmed. And then we'll go one more to 17. It says, and if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Okay, so he's saying here. He's not saying here, don't judge. [00:11:18] Speaker B: No, not at all. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Right. [00:11:20] Speaker B: Not at all. [00:11:21] Speaker A: He's saying, if you see somebody doing something, say something. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:11:27] Speaker A: But there's an important part to that. Say something in private. [00:11:33] Speaker B: In private. [00:11:34] Speaker A: Man, if I could tell you, and I know you say the same thing, the number of times I see people put somebody else on blast on social media. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. [00:11:46] Speaker A: They're like, well, I'm just trying to save you. No, really, you're not. You're trying to tell everybody that you're holier than thou. [00:11:55] Speaker B: Right, right, right. And that. That. Not the fact that it was calling somebody out. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:05] Speaker B: But the fact that you're trying to be this spiritually mature person, a spiritual authority. Right. That's where some church hurt comes from because of the way that it is enacted. Instead of going back into that scripture of Matthew 18, first do it in private. And then if it's not. And this is basic church discipline. [00:12:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:32] Speaker B: You know, now it doesn't say in the first couple of verses there, Matthew 18, verse 15, that if you take them to, you know, talk to them in private, if they don't do it well, then you get out the whip and you, you know, you go at them with both guns. The whole point of it is it comes in verse. Is it verse 16, I think, where it says to gain a brother. Read, read it again. Read 15, 16 and 17 again. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah, it says now. So it starts. 15. Now, if your brother sins, go and show him his fault. And if he listens, you have gained your brother. [00:13:06] Speaker B: Gained a brother. That's what I'm looking for. [00:13:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:08] Speaker B: So it's. The whole point of it is, is to gain a brother. [00:13:13] Speaker A: That's right. [00:13:14] Speaker B: To bring the brother back into the fold, per se. [00:13:18] Speaker A: Right. A brother in Christ. [00:13:19] Speaker B: Right, right. The whole point of. Of going to somebody is not to put them on blast, but to. But for there to be a correction for the act that they're in. [00:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:33] Speaker B: Right. Too many times and so many times because somebody gets put on blast. The idea. I won't even say the idea. The reality of what has happened there causes the church hurt. And so many people will never step foot again back into a church or will not have anything to do with anything Christian related ever again. To the point to where they're like, well, I'm just mad at God now. [00:14:07] Speaker A: Well, because it's such. It's so hypocritical. [00:14:12] Speaker B: It is. [00:14:12] Speaker A: Right. Because the entire message of the gospel is love and forgiveness. Yep. [00:14:17] Speaker B: Yep. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Like Christ came because he loves us. Right, Right. God so loved the world that he sent his son right through everything Christ preached. Forgiveness. [00:14:30] Speaker B: Mm. [00:14:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Mm. [00:14:32] Speaker A: Forgive, repent, Forgive, repent. [00:14:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:36] Speaker A: That's the message. Love. [00:14:38] Speaker B: Right? Right. [00:14:40] Speaker A: Love your enemies. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Right. [00:14:41] Speaker A: As you would your neighbor. [00:14:42] Speaker B: We're gonna get into another scripture here in just a few minutes that talks about that even more. [00:14:47] Speaker A: And so that's why I say it's so hypocritical. Right, Right. For you to not show somebody love, kindness, and forgiveness. [00:14:57] Speaker B: Mm. [00:14:59] Speaker A: Are you a Christian? [00:15:01] Speaker B: You gotta question that motive, don't you? [00:15:03] Speaker A: Well, 100%. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:07] Speaker A: Look, I've been church hurt. [00:15:09] Speaker B: Yeah, Right. [00:15:10] Speaker A: We all have. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:11] Speaker A: And, you know, I think part of my church hurt was sometimes like, look, people grow. And maybe the church you're at, you have grown past and it is time for you to move on. Or you've been in prayer and God saying, I need you to go do something else. [00:15:31] Speaker B: Right, Right. [00:15:32] Speaker A: And it is perfectly acceptable for that to occur. But we had been talking, Linda and I, talking about leaving a church. This is years ago, and praying about it. Where should we go? What should we do? And when we decided to leave, people were like, well, you're just. You're creating division. [00:15:51] Speaker B: Wow. [00:15:52] Speaker A: Really? [00:15:53] Speaker B: Wow. [00:15:55] Speaker A: Can you show me anywhere in scripture that it says that? [00:15:59] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a hard pill to swallow. It really is. Especially with a body that you have grown with somebody that you've invested with and invested in. [00:16:15] Speaker A: Now, look, I will openly say it was not the pastor. [00:16:17] Speaker B: Okay. [00:16:18] Speaker A: It wasn't, you know, somebody on the leadership team when we talked to them and said, look, we feel like this. And they were like, look, if that's what God's calling you to do, you should do exactly right. Which is the right response. But then the congregation comes back at it. Not all of them. Well, but, you know, there's always the one or two. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker A: And then it's like, man, I. I don't think I ever would want to go there again. [00:16:44] Speaker B: So let me. Let me expand on that. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Just. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Okay, so I. Where we are right now, there's a lot of. A lot of people who are church hurt. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:16:59] Speaker B: Right. And because of that very thing. Well, yeah, you know, and when I say I've experienced church hurt as well recently, there are circumstances, and I'm not. We don't have to talk about them. We won't. There are circumstances that took us from where we thought we had a stable body relationship. Come to find out it wasn't quite as stable as what our impression of it was. Right. That causes church hurt as well. And so being in a body now of believers, where we know we're being fed the word, where we know we are in a scripturally based, scripturally founded church, and being able to heal from some of these things, to be able to heal before we jump headlong into service, ministry in this church means so much to me because here I didn't realize how deep some of those grains of hurt were, you know, And I've always been just the kind of guy. And look, I'm not trying to wimp out on anything, okay? Please hear me say that. And I'm not blaming anybody in particular. I'm not going to call names or put them on blast or anything like that. It's not what I'm about. It's not who I am. It's not how I operate. But what I'm saying is being able to realize that, ooh, that hurt a little bit more than what I realized, and being able to sit back and allow God to heal that before I jump headlong into something, whether it be men's ministry or worship ministry or out, out, whatever it is, that makes my service that much more dedicated. We'll call it that. [00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:22] Speaker B: Okay. Because I'm able to put some of these things to bed behind me, being able to focus on everything that God's called me to without having to look back over my shoulder wondering, wait, is so and so still PO'd at me about, or did I do something? You know what I'm saying? [00:19:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:19:42] Speaker B: So here's my. Here's my point with all of it. It doesn't matter what that hurt was. It can be overcome. God didn't cause it. [00:19:52] Speaker A: That's right. [00:19:53] Speaker B: People did. [00:19:54] Speaker A: That's right. [00:19:55] Speaker B: And too many times we. Too many times people get it twisted and get mad at God because something that somebody did, either in a church, in a church setting or in the name of Jesus, they get mad at God when the person is the one that's at fault. [00:20:15] Speaker A: Yeah. And that goes back to how we started this. Right. We're all broken. [00:20:18] Speaker B: We all are. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Right. We're all broken. And you don't wait for your arm to heal to go to the hospital. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Right, right, right. [00:20:25] Speaker A: You go to the hospital so they can fix your arm. [00:20:27] Speaker B: And that's the reason that we're in Matthew chapter 18 right there. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Right. [00:20:30] Speaker B: Because in order for that to get fixed, you got to go to that person. In order for that arm to be healed, you got to go get it set. [00:20:39] Speaker A: That's right. [00:20:40] Speaker B: And the only way to set it is, guess what, there's going to be a little bit of pain involved in it because they got to put it right back where it was. [00:20:46] Speaker A: That's right. [00:20:47] Speaker B: And the same thing goes with healing from church hurt. [00:20:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:50] Speaker B: There's got to be a little bit of that pain involved to relive that situation, to be able to get through it, get over it, and get done with it. [00:20:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:58] Speaker B: In order to be able to grow, to move on. [00:20:59] Speaker A: Yeah. I'll tell you, it was. You know, it was really hard for me at one point, you know, when we had left this church and we. We did try to go back, but I didn't realize how hurt I was. [00:21:12] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:21:13] Speaker A: And I'll give the scenario. And, you know, I'm going to start with, it wasn't their fault. [00:21:20] Speaker B: Okay. [00:21:20] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:21] Speaker A: I was at fault as well. [00:21:23] Speaker B: True. But I get it. I understand. [00:21:25] Speaker A: But the reason I was hurt was when we initially left the church and we had talked to the Church leadership, and they got it. They were on board. They knew what was going on. We weren't like, maliciously, we're out of here. Right, Right. We had conversations before anything ever happened. Pastor was amazing. But up until that point, I had had a men's group at my house for three years. Seven, eight dudes, every night. Every Wednesday night, I think Wednesday or Thursday night at my house for three years. [00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:00] Speaker A: And when we left that church, not one of those people called to see how I was doing. Now, the flip side of that is I didn't call them either. Right. [00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:16] Speaker A: I didn't recognize how hurt I was of that. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:20] Speaker A: And, you know, we ended up. We did go back to the church. It was a different pastor at that time. You know, I think we were just like, it's convenient. [00:22:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:22:31] Speaker A: We hadn't found a church that we had loved. [00:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:34] Speaker A: And we tried to go back, and, you know, we're having meetings with the pastor, you know, before we left again, and he was talking about, well, this is your community. And it hit me at that point that it wasn't like, how is it my community? It's the same people. And for three years, we had a men's group, and nobody even checked on me. [00:22:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:54] Speaker A: Right. No email, no nothing. No, you know, miss you. No. [00:22:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:00] Speaker A: In all that time, nothing. And that was when I was like, I. We really. This is not the place for us. Well, because it's hard for me to overcome that right now. [00:23:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:14] Speaker A: So now, today, I could probably go back there and it would be perfectly fine. Right. I recognize. Right. [00:23:21] Speaker B: I get that. Yeah. Yeah. [00:23:23] Speaker A: I'm not going to go back because I love where we're at. [00:23:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:26] Speaker A: And even, you know, I think the hardest part about a new church sometimes, like when we joined Crossroads Fellowship, Gary was the senior pastor. And in that time, they were transit like we went, because Gary was the senior pastor. We loved his message, and Ryan was the executive pastor. And they transitioned. Ryan's now the senior, the lead pastor. And normally that kind of transition causes problems. [00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:23:55] Speaker A: Not even one. [00:23:57] Speaker B: See, that's beautiful. Not even absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. [00:24:01] Speaker A: And so you just. I look at that and I'm like, okay, they. They're doing God's work. It isn't about them. [00:24:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:07] Speaker A: Not that all these other pastors aren't either, but, like, in everything they do, it's God. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Right. So a similar situation that I have experienced was kind of the same thing. You know, we hadn't been attending for however many months, you know, and heard from one person and I'd seen people out, you know, and, and, but never once did anybody call to check, you know, hey, is everything cools? Everything, you know, and, or maybe once. Yeah, you know, and so when everything's said and done, you know, you get a, you get a text message, hey, hate to see you go. Really? I don't believe that. Because if that were the case, you would have been trying to find out. [00:25:04] Speaker A: What was going on months ago. [00:25:06] Speaker B: Months ago. [00:25:07] Speaker A: Months ago. [00:25:08] Speaker B: So here's, here's my thing with that, though. No matter what happened in those situations, either yours or mine, or write a book with other church hurt situations, that does not negate the fact that Jesus came to this earth. He lived a life to show us what ministry was like. [00:25:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:30] Speaker B: He was crucified, he died, and he rose again after being buried for three days. [00:25:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:38] Speaker B: That does not negate anything that Jesus did is or will be in our lives. [00:25:45] Speaker A: Amen to that. [00:25:46] Speaker B: So no matter what happened in that situation that caused that church hurt, that does not negate that Jesus is the savior of the world. [00:25:57] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. And that it's love and forgiveness. And before you read that, I think it's worth noting that throughout Paul's letters there are broken, destructive churches. [00:26:14] Speaker B: They are, they are. [00:26:15] Speaker A: Right. [00:26:16] Speaker B: With lots of debauchery, all kinds of junk going on. [00:26:20] Speaker A: Right? [00:26:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Not just like, like junk junk. Yeah, yeah. Even all the way down to the way some of them took the Lord's Supper. [00:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:32] Speaker B: You know, I see these things and I've heard of churches. I'm not going there. What I was going to say is I've heard of churches who have all the junk going on in the background. I've heard of churches where the debauchery and the things that should never, ever be involved in a church service, in a church body, or that should be even embraced enough to consider the possibility of in these churches. Right. But good can still come out of that. Here's how people will wake up. People will understand. That's not what I'm reading in the Bible. [00:27:22] Speaker A: That's right. [00:27:25] Speaker B: That's not the fruit of the Spirit. That's not the way that the Bible says that we should worship. That's not the way that the Bible says we should live our life. And so the good that comes out of that is, even if there is a division, even the good will overcome the evil. Good will always win in the end. We already have that right here. [00:27:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I love. I don't read that in the Bible and I say that Because I think there's also a lot of church hurt between denominations. [00:28:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:28:06] Speaker A: Well, I'm a Church of Christ. Well, I'm a Southern Baptist. Well, I'm a Pentecost. I'm. Right. Whatever. [00:28:11] Speaker B: Lutheran, Methodist, whatever it may be. Yeah. [00:28:15] Speaker A: And we believe this. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:16] Speaker A: Well, there wasn't all of that in the Bible. [00:28:21] Speaker B: Not. Not as. [00:28:27] Speaker A: Not as defined. [00:28:28] Speaker B: Not as defined as what? Is that correct? [00:28:30] Speaker A: Correct. As defined. [00:28:31] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:28:32] Speaker A: Like. [00:28:32] Speaker B: But you go back to, like, Pharisees and Sadducees. [00:28:36] Speaker A: True. But Christ came to end that. [00:28:38] Speaker B: Right, right, right. You know, Jew and Gentile. Yeah, yeah. [00:28:42] Speaker A: Christ came to end that right, to fulfill the law. [00:28:46] Speaker B: Which means what? To finish. [00:28:49] Speaker A: To finish. Yeah. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Right, right. Because a new covenant was coming. [00:28:53] Speaker A: That's right. So in that process of the birth, the crucifixion and death and the resurrection, all that division should be gone. [00:29:06] Speaker B: Should be. Should. So why can't we get along? [00:29:09] Speaker A: I don't have an answer for that. Because we have. Because we have books of. I don't even know what they're called. Like the core values of the Church of Christ or the. You know, the Book of. I don't know what it's called. Right. It's not like a scripture, but, like, they're. This is our mandate for the church. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Christ. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah. No, no. I mean, but they all have their own. Like, this is what our theology. [00:29:36] Speaker B: Okay, I get it. I'll subscribe to that. Yeah. [00:29:39] Speaker A: This is what we believe, and this is. [00:29:41] Speaker B: Right. And this is why we believe. Yeah, right. [00:29:42] Speaker A: And then Lutheran will say, this is maybe our charter or statement of. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Right. Right. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Or statement of right or whatever it may be. Right. [00:29:47] Speaker B: And methods. Have the book of discipline and other. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Right. [00:29:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:29:50] Speaker A: Take the book of discipline as an example. Right. [00:29:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:52] Speaker A: Is 100% of the book of this discipline. I've never read it. So I'm asking a question. Is 100% of the book of discipline from Scripture? [00:30:00] Speaker B: No. [00:30:01] Speaker A: So what is it from man? And I'm supposed to follow that. [00:30:06] Speaker B: I get you. [00:30:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:07] Speaker B: I get you. Yeah. [00:30:09] Speaker A: So that's what I'm saying. In all the denominations, they have their. Call it. [00:30:13] Speaker B: Whatever they're saying now. I see what you're saying now. Yeah. Yeah. [00:30:17] Speaker A: But I continue to go back to what does scripture say? [00:30:23] Speaker B: I see what you're saying. [00:30:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:24] Speaker B: I agree. I agree. I agree. So let's. Let's read this scripture from Romans, chapter 10, verses 9 through 13. Okay. This come from the NASB. Let love be without hypocrisy, abhor what is evil, cling to what Is good. Here, check this out. Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Give preference to no one or to one another in honor, not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord. Check this out. Rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation. Devoted to prayer. Contributing to the needs of the saints, Practicing hospitality. Now, if we were to take those four verses right there and we were to. To throw them up against the wall where they would stick and go, okay, this is what we have to do. No matter if you're in the church of Christ, no matter if you're Southern Baptist, no wonder. No matter if you're a church of God, Pentecostal, Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal, whatever, Whatever faith that you are living under the umbrella of. And when I say faith or denomination or whatever, if we were to put these four verses up and say universally, here it is, right here. This is how we're supposed to live our life. [00:31:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:59] Speaker B: There would be no more church hurt. [00:32:01] Speaker A: There would not. Because everybody's living a very specific way. [00:32:05] Speaker B: There would be no more denomination. [00:32:07] Speaker A: What was that? Romans. What? [00:32:09] Speaker B: Romans 12, 9, 13. [00:32:13] Speaker A: Go ahead. Sorry. [00:32:15] Speaker B: There wouldn't be any division in a church. Heard a story one time about a church up in Kentucky and a church, the pastor of the church wanted to put a peg in the wall to hang his coat on. Have I told you the story before? [00:32:32] Speaker A: That's okay. Keep going. [00:32:34] Speaker B: And so the church ended up splitting over. The decision to put a peg in the wall for the pastor to hang his coat on when he came in. And so you had the peg church and the non peg church, and they are literally buildings across the street from each other throwing rocks and pointing fingers at the other one over a peg in a wall. [00:33:03] Speaker A: Well, it goes back to, you know, and I'm sure you've been there, but, you know, I've been to churches where when you walked in, there was always this. There was always that type of flower or this type of thing always in the same place. And. And if you tried to change it or move it, the world was coming to an end. [00:33:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Just like the peg. [00:33:28] Speaker B: Yeah, Just like. Yeah, right. [00:33:30] Speaker A: You're a horrible person. You're trying to change. [00:33:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:33] Speaker A: Well, what are you idolizing at that point? [00:33:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:38] Speaker A: The location of that flower. More important than worshiping God. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. So how about. [00:33:46] Speaker A: But you get church hurt because of that, too. [00:33:49] Speaker B: You do, you do. And the problem with what the outcome of that is is hurt people. Hurt people. [00:33:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:33:56] Speaker B: You know, and so somebody doesn't like that chrysanthemum was placed in where the lily was supposed to be. [00:34:06] Speaker A: Right. Right. Right. [00:34:06] Speaker B: And. And. And it doesn't matter, you know, if a poinsettia is over here. But what. What. It's that. It's that opinion that got stepped on. [00:34:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:20] Speaker B: And we amplify that into. Well, I just. I can never go back there. [00:34:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:34:28] Speaker B: Okay. Hold on just a minute. Let love be without hypocrisy, Abhor what is evil, cling to what is good. How is my own opinion over what the. What color flower is in there? [00:34:42] Speaker A: Well, it's not. But verse 10, right. It be the devoted to one another in brotherly love. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:49] Speaker A: Give preference to one another in honor. [00:34:52] Speaker B: Honor. [00:34:52] Speaker A: Right. Be devoted and give preference in honor. [00:34:56] Speaker B: Honor. [00:34:57] Speaker A: Right. If you're putting somebody on blast on social media, are you honoring them? [00:35:01] Speaker B: Not a bit. Absolutely not. [00:35:04] Speaker A: Right? [00:35:04] Speaker B: Absolutely not. [00:35:05] Speaker A: We've said this a lot. I think there's a lot of church hurt because people are judging other people's salvation. [00:35:17] Speaker B: Or not just that, but saying that their sin is greater than my sin. [00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:26] Speaker B: Like. [00:35:27] Speaker A: Well, that's the. You know, love must be free of hypocrisy. Yes, Right. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Like, what he's doing is worse than what I'm doing. He's going to hell and I'm not, even though I'm doing something wrong. [00:35:36] Speaker A: But on the cross, did Jesus tell the thief that his sin was worse or less? [00:35:40] Speaker B: No. He. All he told him was, today you'll be with me in a paradise. [00:35:46] Speaker A: And the reason was because the thief believed. [00:35:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:35:52] Speaker A: The thief had faith in who he was. [00:35:54] Speaker B: Right. He recognized who Jesus was, believed that. That. That could heal his spirit. [00:36:01] Speaker A: Yeah. And he didn't ask to be in paradise. He just said, remember me. I know who you are, remember. [00:36:07] Speaker B: Right. Right. And Jesus said, today, I wonder what. [00:36:11] Speaker A: Church would be like is if everybody took the approach of just remember me. [00:36:18] Speaker B: You know, how humbling is that, really? Because. Let me. Let me break it down for you a little bit. When the thief on the cross that's beside Jesus says, remember me, what he has done to get to that cross had to have been bad. [00:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Because they just didn't crucify everybody. No, it was. You did something bad. [00:36:48] Speaker B: Right. Paul and Silas were in prison, Right? Right. They got prison sentences. The thief and Jesus and a dude on the other side of Jesus had. They got the death sentence. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:01] Speaker B: Right. So they had done things. [00:37:03] Speaker A: Let's just be honest, right. There were death sentences of beheading. [00:37:07] Speaker B: There were. [00:37:08] Speaker A: This was not just a death Sentence. This was a humiliation. [00:37:12] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:13] Speaker A: And torture. [00:37:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:37:14] Speaker A: Of a sentence. [00:37:16] Speaker B: Right, Exactly. That's my point. [00:37:18] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:19] Speaker B: This dude has done something really, really, really bad. [00:37:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:23] Speaker B: And humbles himself enough to realize that the guy next to him is the Messiah. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:32] Speaker B: And just ask, simply, remember, remember me. He's not saying, hey, can, can. Can you get these guys to. [00:37:42] Speaker A: What would it be like if. If just in our everyday lives? And I don't know why I never thought of this, you know, but in my prayer life, there's, you know, I'm like, lord, I just need help with this. Right. Please look after that. What if part of my prayer life was just God remembered me? [00:38:05] Speaker B: Wow. Wow. Yeah. Because we ask for so many things. [00:38:13] Speaker A: I had somebody ask me one time, and I'm sure I've told you this. If all your prayers were answered tomorrow, would anybody benefit other than you? [00:38:27] Speaker B: Wow. I thought, holy crap, that's sobering. That is sober. [00:38:33] Speaker A: Maybe five or six years ago is a while ago, but still maybe seven or ten. [00:38:37] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:38:38] Speaker A: I was kind of new, a new Christian, so maybe even more than 10. I don't know nowadays. [00:38:43] Speaker B: But, well. [00:38:45] Speaker A: And my prayer life was at that time, like, God, I need this, and God, I need this, and God, I need you to take this away. [00:38:51] Speaker B: And it was a gimme, gimme, gimme. Yeah, yeah. [00:38:54] Speaker A: Because I was like, look, you're here to help me. [00:39:01] Speaker B: But now I've never asked myself that question. But that's awesome. [00:39:04] Speaker A: If I took it a step farther other than would, who's, you know, who would benefit? [00:39:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:14] Speaker A: If my prayers were answered tomorrow, if I took it a step past that and said, like the thief, shouldn't I just be asking him to remember me? [00:39:27] Speaker B: Can you imagine? Let's, let's. Let's segue this a little bit into our topic today. Can you imagine how much we could get over or how much we could accomplish if we had that thief mentality of remember me? Because that's loving without hypocrisy. [00:39:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:52] Speaker B: That's clinging to what's good. And then from there the rest of it would fall in place as far as being devoted to one another and brotherly love, giving preference to one another in honor, not lagging behind in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord, rejoicing in hope, persevering in tribulation, devoted to prayer, contributing to the needs of the saints and practicing hospitality. [00:40:15] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I do believe that a large percentage of the people who hurt you in a church, and I just say large percentage, just because that's. You know, what I believe. But I believe a large percentage of people that hurt you in a church are not doing it out of malice. Sometimes they don't even know. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I would. [00:40:46] Speaker A: I don't think they're intentionally, like, hurting you to hurt you. Right. Sometimes I don't think they even know. [00:40:55] Speaker B: I. Sometimes. Sometimes I would agree with it. Yeah, right. [00:40:59] Speaker A: I didn't say 100%. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. And I was trying to. In my little feeble mind, I was doing the statistics of, okay, so did this person really mean to do this to me? But. And you may. You have a good point there. You have a very valid point there. [00:41:15] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:15] Speaker B: That most of the time, some of the time, it's not intentional. [00:41:21] Speaker A: And do you know who you hurt? [00:41:24] Speaker B: I have no idea. [00:41:26] Speaker A: I don't know who I heard. I'm sure I have. [00:41:29] Speaker B: Well, I guarantee I have. [00:41:30] Speaker A: But I've never intentionally hurt somebody in the church, to my knowledge. [00:41:35] Speaker B: Not in the church. [00:41:36] Speaker A: Yeah. I said in the church. Yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker B: Yeah. But it doesn't make any difference in the church. [00:41:42] Speaker A: But I just. I just say that. That. Because it goes back to the. Remember. If we just said, remember me? [00:41:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Would we focus so much on what hurts? On what hurts. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Man, that's. I think that's the perfect place to land this one. [00:42:05] Speaker A: I agree. [00:42:06] Speaker B: You know, remember me, Lord, because you are the one that can fix it. [00:42:11] Speaker A: That's right. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Hey, guys, we appreciate you being with us today. We love so much to be able to talk to each other, but to be able to put things in a perspective to where we can understand them, and hopefully you can as well. With this topic today, we're hoping that people would kind of have a little bit of understanding of how to work through this. And look, if you want to talk more about it with us, please shoot us an email at hello at nomadpastor. Org. And we always want to remind you that no matter where you are, who you are and who you're with, to love God and love people.