Faith and Addiction Recovery

[00:00:07] Speaker A: Hey, everybody, it's Rick and Rob. Welcome back to the Nomad Pastor podcast. [00:00:10] Speaker B: I wish I could play that. [00:00:12] Speaker A: I bet you can if you listen to it. If I sent you the intro, I bet you I probably. Could probably play it. [00:00:17] Speaker B: I got. One of the things as a guitar player that I have always wanted to get better at is finger rolls. Appregio. Appregios. I always wanted to be better at that. I always wanted to be a finger picker. You know? [00:00:30] Speaker A: Why don't you just get on the guitar and do up a little intro for us? [00:00:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:35] Speaker A: I mean, why not? [00:00:37] Speaker B: Okay. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Something that you think is cool. [00:00:40] Speaker B: Okay. All right, I'll do it. [00:00:42] Speaker A: All right, so today we're gonna talk about faith and addiction recovery. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Yep. [00:00:49] Speaker A: And how that looks. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Yep. This. This is something that both of us are close to. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Either, you know, definitely in our own lives or the people. [00:01:02] Speaker B: People around us. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. [00:01:05] Speaker A: It's either one or the other. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And both. [00:01:08] Speaker A: And both. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And both. [00:01:10] Speaker A: And so how do you. How do you deal with that? And so I'm gonna. I'm gonna read a scripture, and it's one corinthians 1013. And this is the NiV version. [00:01:20] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:21] Speaker A: It says, no temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. [00:01:38] Speaker B: Read that one more time. [00:01:39] Speaker A: The whole thing. [00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:01:41] Speaker A: No temptation has overtaken you, except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful. He will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it. [00:01:56] Speaker B: That's another topic. We'll talk about that. So let's apply this to our topic today of faith and addiction recovery. Is it possible to have faith and be addicted at the same time? [00:02:22] Speaker A: I think so. [00:02:24] Speaker B: I wholeheartedly think so. [00:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it is. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Now, is it possible to exercise your faith and grow your faith and be addicted? [00:02:39] Speaker A: Probably not. [00:02:40] Speaker B: I don't think so. [00:02:41] Speaker A: Probably not. [00:02:42] Speaker B: I don't think. [00:02:42] Speaker A: I mean, I hate to say that, but. Probably not. [00:02:45] Speaker B: It's sad to have to say it. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:02:48] Speaker B: But I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so. I think the reason is because in addiction, that becomes what you worship. [00:02:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It is what you put above everything else. [00:03:04] Speaker B: It's what you put up on that pedestal that you're chasing, that you're struggling for. Right. And in my life, as an addict. As a recovered addict, I look at my addiction days, alcohol and drugs, as not just the dark time of my life, but the time when I needed God the most and rejected him the hardest. I had family that prayed for me earnestly, daily, hourly, sometimes by the minute. I had friends that showed that concern, that exercised that concern for me, and I pushed it away because the high or getting loaded. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:07] Speaker B: Was more important to me than anything they had to say. Getting loaded, getting drunk, getting high, whatever was. Was more important to me than even my kids. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:25] Speaker B: It was. It replaced everything that I knew as holy in my life. It ran me amok. [00:04:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:40] Speaker B: And it caused. It caused at times, many times, not just a question of my faith, but the attempt to reject my faith because of my actions. [00:04:57] Speaker A: Did you ever think, you know, I've heard, like, guys in recovery say, well, I prayed. I prayed, God, just take it away. [00:05:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:08] Speaker A: And he didn't take it away. And then I've heard people say, I got on my knees and said, God, I give everything to you, and he took it away. Which are two different things. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:26] Speaker A: God, take it away, or, God, I give you all. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Give you all of me. Yeah. [00:05:32] Speaker A: Right. [00:05:33] Speaker B: There has to be. There has to be that admittance and submission in order for God to be present, to work in our lives. And so through that, the differences in God, take this away and God, I give you all of me, and it's gone. Is where that statement of faith personally rides between these two ears and what I believe. [00:06:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:15] Speaker B: And I think that for the ones that, because I was hard headed, you know, I equated clean time with recovery, and I equated. I equated that time as well. It was a relapse. Not really. [00:06:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Because that time was just. It was just absent in my life. It wasn't really a relapse. [00:06:52] Speaker A: Right. [00:06:53] Speaker B: So it wasn't until I realized what recovery actually could do for me and how to work recovery that I was able, actually, to stay clean, to stay sober. [00:07:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:08] Speaker B: And so through that process of understanding that from August 1 of 2008 until today has been a faith journey that has grown. [00:07:21] Speaker A: Yeah. So how do you. How do people. How do people maintain that as they go through recovery? Because, look, recovery is not easy. [00:07:35] Speaker B: It's not. [00:07:36] Speaker A: Right. It's nothing, you know? And, you know, you hear people say, well, it gets easier with time. [00:07:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:43] Speaker A: But it's still never easy. [00:07:45] Speaker B: It's. It's not. It's not. And the thing that I was in and out of rooms, you know, an. A you know, all those years, and I would. I would get to a point to where I thought I could manage it myself. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:04] Speaker B: And then go back out. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:07] Speaker B: And so the things that I thought I could do was in my power. [00:08:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:15] Speaker B: And so once I realized that, I had to let God do it through me and for me and to me. [00:08:29] Speaker A: Well, it's just, you know, it's like, I don't know where. In revelations it talks about, you know, he's knocking on the door. [00:08:37] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:08:37] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Mm hmm. Yeah. [00:08:40] Speaker A: And we can choose to open the door. [00:08:42] Speaker B: We can. We can't. We have that free will. [00:08:44] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:45] Speaker B: We have that, yeah. [00:08:45] Speaker A: And I think that's where the struggle is. [00:08:48] Speaker B: Absolutely where the struggle is. Yeah. [00:08:49] Speaker A: Because we have free will to be addicts. We have free will to. And I don't just mean drugs and alcohol, right. [00:08:55] Speaker B: No, no, no. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Right. [00:08:56] Speaker B: No, no, no. Pornography, gambling. [00:08:57] Speaker A: Pornography, gambling, food. [00:08:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:00] Speaker A: Anything that you prioritize over God. [00:09:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:04] Speaker A: That takes over your life. Right. For some people listening, it may be PlayStation. [00:09:10] Speaker B: It could be. [00:09:11] Speaker A: Or Xbox. Right. I gotta play mad and I gotta play. Call it whatever. [00:09:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:09:16] Speaker A: Do they still have Madden today? [00:09:17] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:09:18] Speaker A: I don't either. [00:09:19] Speaker B: I don't play video games. I don't play. [00:09:24] Speaker A: But. But that, that, too. Right. We see a lot of kids struggling with games today. [00:09:28] Speaker B: We do. We do. [00:09:29] Speaker A: It could be the addiction of social media. [00:09:31] Speaker B: It could be. Yeah. I have people who have said, you know, who have come to me and said, look, man, I need to keep me accountable. I'm on, you know, Facebook reels, and I know if I stay in this. In this succession, in this cycle of Facebook reels, that something's gonna catch my attention and I'm gonna go down a rabbit hole, and the next thing you know, you know, off in a corner of my house watching pornography, you know, so we recognize those triggers. We recognize those things, and we look at addiction as just the disease. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:15] Speaker B: Instead of where the disease comes from. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:23] Speaker B: In sin. [00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah. 100%. [00:10:26] Speaker B: You know? And so there's a lot of ways to fight addiction with faith when we remain in what we're supposed to. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think. And I know you got a scripture there, but do you think that a lot of people in addiction are trying to fill a hole? [00:10:48] Speaker B: I think every single one of them are trying to fill a hole. [00:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I don't think they want to admit it. [00:10:52] Speaker B: They don't. And here's why. Because in every single addiction, every single addiction, every single addict that I've known, they don't have to be a junkie, they don't have to be a drunk. They can be addicted to porn, sex, food, gambling, whatever. Whatever it is. Right. They're numbing the pain from something. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:14] Speaker B: It could be the pain of shame. It could be physical pain. It could be emotional pain. It's pain from something 100% every single time. And so until we. Until we deal with that pain, until we figure out what that pain is triggering the addiction is just the byproduct of what is going on. [00:11:42] Speaker A: That's right. [00:11:43] Speaker B: A lot of times that pain can be brought on from some type of abuse. Okay? That pain could be brought on from. It could be bullying. Right? I mean, it's. The vastness of what that pain could be coming from and what it can be attributed to is huge. It's massive. Choosing to stay in that without treating it is where the sin comes in. [00:12:16] Speaker A: That's right. [00:12:17] Speaker B: That's where. That's where it comes to a head of us numbing out in whatever it is. Video gaming drugs outcomes. [00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a way to dull the senses, dull the pain. [00:12:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:12:32] Speaker A: Dull the trauma. All the insert word here, but. [00:12:38] Speaker B: But the whole thing with dulling or numbing is not dealing with. [00:12:44] Speaker A: That's right. [00:12:44] Speaker B: To take it away. [00:12:45] Speaker A: That's right. [00:12:46] Speaker B: And that's where the addiction comes in. [00:12:48] Speaker A: So. [00:12:50] Speaker B: And I'm not saying that people who have. Who have been abused, physically, sexually, emotionally, whatever, have committed a sin. I'm not saying that that sin is the reason that they were abused. Okay? So, folks, please, right. Write that down. [00:13:10] Speaker A: That's right. [00:13:10] Speaker B: Hear that? The thing that caused you pain may not be a sin. Yeah, most of the time it's not. However. [00:13:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Or it may not be a sin you committed. [00:13:25] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. [00:13:26] Speaker A: That's maybe a better way to say true. Right. [00:13:30] Speaker B: To clarify that. However, choosing the way that you numb that instead of dealing with it in a spiritual way causes the sin. Okay? So I want to read a scripture from James, chapter five. This is verse 16. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. I remember. I'm going to try not to get emotional about this, okay. I remember working a step, a particular step, and the step was to make amends with those that you've wronged or have wronged you. And I called my parents to make amends with my parents. And it was the first time that I remember my parents realizing the brevity of some of the things that I had done. And, mom, you still don't know half of it, dad. You still don't know half of it. I remember my dad at the end of that can just on quiet and say a word. And it's probably a minute. A minute and a half went by on the phone conversation, and dad goes, well, let's pray. And that scripture popped up in my mind immediately because I thought, a righteous mandez is praying for me. [00:15:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Praise God. [00:15:19] Speaker B: And even though the pain of what I've done, even to them, was real, there was that forgiveness. I knew. I knew a righteous man was praying, and I knew because of that, that that prayer was effective not just in my forgiveness, but in my recovery and in my. In my growth. And I'll never forget that moment ever. Ever. All right, I'm back together now. Sorry. [00:16:20] Speaker A: No, you should never apologize. [00:16:22] Speaker B: I'm sorry. [00:16:23] Speaker A: No. [00:16:25] Speaker B: So I look at that scripture differently now since that prayer, and I can't even remember what was said, but I remember knowing at that time, you know, and I have a lot of respect for my dad. I have a lot of admiration, a lot of honor for my dad. But I knew that night, and it was raining to beat the band, man, it was raining upside down, and I'm trying to drive. I was headed home, and I knew that I needed to do it right then. So I made the phone call, and it was. I knew that I could continue in what I had done, in what I'd started, not what I'd done, in what I'd started in recovery, knowing that that prayer had been uttered, and it wasn't. I'm sure it wasn't. My dad's a very. He's a great orator. He's very eloquent when he speaks. He knows how to enunciate. He knows how to syncopate. He knows the timbre of his voice and how to use it. My dad is a good communicator. He's a great communicator. But that night, he communicated with Goddesse. That was. That was huge for me. [00:17:58] Speaker A: So I think it shows. First. Thank you. I know it's not easy to talk about. [00:18:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:08] Speaker A: But it shows the need for spiritual accountability. [00:18:15] Speaker B: It does. It does. Really does. [00:18:17] Speaker A: And the need for confession. [00:18:18] Speaker B: Yep. [00:18:19] Speaker A: Yep. Those steps. Right. The people go through that are there for a reason. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. [00:18:28] Speaker A: And the way to have faith in recovery is to work through it. [00:18:34] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:18:36] Speaker A: I know a lot of people, and I know you do, too, who have tried to recover alone. [00:18:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it doesn't ever work. [00:18:48] Speaker A: And we've talked about this before. Right? Clean time versus recovery. [00:18:51] Speaker B: Recovery time. Yeah. Yeah. [00:18:54] Speaker A: We know people. We pray for people that have family members or friends. [00:18:58] Speaker B: Yes. [00:18:59] Speaker A: That are trying to recover. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:02] Speaker A: And they continue to fall. [00:19:03] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. Because they're. They're not. They're not opening themselves to what God can do. [00:19:11] Speaker A: That's right. [00:19:11] Speaker B: Trying to do it on them. [00:19:12] Speaker A: That's right. They're not allowing spiritual accountability. [00:19:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:16] Speaker A: They're not allowing physical accountability. Physical accountability. [00:19:19] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:19:20] Speaker A: And they're not in real confession. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:19:24] Speaker A: Right. It's one thing to be like, ah, I gotta stop doing this. [00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:29] Speaker A: And another to be like, God, please forgive me for what I've done. [00:19:34] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. [00:19:36] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, you see on tv, you know, people going to their knees to pray beside their bed or, you know, beside a bunk in a jail cell or something like that. And spiritually, you need to be. For that confession. Prayer. [00:19:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Spiritually, you need to be on your knees. You're. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Spiritually. [00:20:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Not necessarily physical, you know, but you have to. You spiritually have to be on your knees. [00:20:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:13] Speaker B: You have to. And where that gets lost in translation keeps people. Keeps people confused in the difference between clean time and recovery time. [00:20:30] Speaker A: Well, and I think Linda consistently talks about a poem that she loves about the tandem bicycle ride. [00:20:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:40] Speaker A: Have you heard it, read it, or have I May. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Have you told me about it? Yeah. [00:20:46] Speaker A: And, you know, basically the poem starts out where, you know, I'm driving and it's a tandem bike, and Jesus is in the seat behind me, but I'm still driving, I'm still making the turns, I'm still in control. And it never goes the way it's supposed to go until I switch seats with him. And then the adventures on. [00:21:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And what a ride. [00:21:10] Speaker A: What a ride. [00:21:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:12] Speaker A: And I think a lot of times, unfortunately, people are at the bottom and they say, take this away from me. There's no heart in it. [00:21:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:28] Speaker A: That heart in it is part of that being on your spiritual knees, that spiritual accountability, that confession of God. I've screwed my life up. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Right. [00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. You get. [00:21:44] Speaker A: If your heart's not in it, you're not. [00:21:46] Speaker B: That's the thing. If your heart's. [00:21:48] Speaker A: He's knocking at the door. [00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:50] Speaker A: And you're not letting him in. You're looking at it through the window. [00:21:53] Speaker B: Yeah. You. You talk about your heart not being in it. And. And recovery is something that. So, back last month, I was actually in Oklahoma and went to a recovery meeting. It was a bonfire recovery meeting, and there were a lot of people that were sharing there was probably 60 people around this bonfire, and there were people that had been clean 24 hours. There were people that had been clean six weeks, nine months, a year. And I was a guest at this meeting and got introduced at the meeting, and, you know, hey, can, you know, you share something? And my thing is, I am a recovered addict. [00:22:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:45] Speaker B: Okay. I'm still in the process of figuring out what that recovery is after 17 years. [00:22:52] Speaker A: Yeah, 16 years. [00:22:54] Speaker B: You know, I'm still. I'm still trying to figure out every single day, even though I don't have the urge, I don't have the desire, I don't have. I'm still. I'm still trying to figure out every single day how to build my walk firmer, how to build my faith stronger, how to build my life so that others can get some hope and some encouragement out of what my story is. You know, the old days of the way that I used to be. I don't want people to think that my battle scars are medals of honor. I'm ashamed of what I did because of the people that I hurt a and the God that I betrayed. I'm glad that I'm on the other side of it, and I'm thankful for what I learned in it. [00:24:04] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. How long did it take you to be thankful for what you learned in it? [00:24:09] Speaker B: Wow. Probably seven, eight years. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:17] Speaker B: And recover. [00:24:18] Speaker A: And I ask that because it's a continual process. [00:24:22] Speaker B: It is. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Right. [00:24:23] Speaker B: It is. [00:24:24] Speaker A: We've heard of people who stopped being held accountable after ten years, 15 years, 20 years of sobriety, and then fail. [00:24:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:24:39] Speaker A: And I think this is so crazy. Another thing we talked about this morning. [00:24:43] Speaker B: This very thing, and last week and. [00:24:46] Speaker A: The week before was the change in venue. [00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Changing your playground, changing your playmates. [00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah. I think a lot of times, you know, people. Well, that's who I grew up with. They're my best friends. Or the. If they were your best friends, they wouldn't do it around you. [00:25:03] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:05] Speaker A: Because they may not struggle with it the way you do. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker A: I have a lot of friends who can just. I'm gonna go have a couple drinks. Right. But then I have other friends that can't handle that. Right, right. And so if I have friends that can't handle a drink, I'm not going to drink around them. [00:25:26] Speaker B: And that's something. That's something that a lot of people outside of recovery don't recognize. [00:25:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:36] Speaker B: And I say that because. Not because they've never faced an addiction, but because they're not in active recovery. So that they don't, I guess, recognize, for lack of a better term, recognize what a stumbling block looks like. [00:26:01] Speaker A: I would agree with that. I mean, look, we've talked about it. Look, I have a real problem with food. Right? [00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:08] Speaker A: And if you're eating chocolate cake, I'm eating chocolate cake. [00:26:12] Speaker B: Well, you're safe because you know I don't eat chocolate cake. [00:26:16] Speaker A: I know you don't, but. But I'm just. I'm using that now. [00:26:18] Speaker B: Cherry pie is different. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Yeah. Then I would eat cherry pie, too, because if it's sweet in dessert. [00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:26] Speaker A: I got a shot for diabetes. [00:26:30] Speaker B: We got this covered, baby. [00:26:31] Speaker A: I'm good, baby. [00:26:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:34] Speaker A: You know, and I think. You know, I think the only thing that kept me from being an alcoholic was fear, really. You know, fear of becoming my stepdad. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Yeah. See, I didn't. I didn't have. I grew up in a very strict, conservative, christian home. [00:26:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:58] Speaker B: You know, if you ask my dad today, he's never a drink, has never touched his lips. You know, he's never smoked a cigarette. You know, I kept Phillips and Morrison business for a while by myself, smoking so much. [00:27:15] Speaker A: Copenhagen and Marlborough. [00:27:16] Speaker B: Exactly, man. [00:27:17] Speaker A: Actually, I did camel, but. [00:27:19] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I was Copenhagen and Marlboro. [00:27:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:24] Speaker B: But at the same time, Jim Beam and Jack Daniel was my friend. [00:27:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:31] Speaker B: They weren't. We were tight. [00:27:33] Speaker A: I mean, you gotta have a. You gotta. You gotta be serious if you're chewing. I chewed a can of Copenhagen a day and a pack of cigarettes. [00:27:39] Speaker B: I did, too. [00:27:40] Speaker A: Right. [00:27:40] Speaker B: Wake up in the morning, the first thing I do is put a dip of Copenhagen in. Brush my teeth. Dip, Copenhagen. And then coffee. [00:27:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Now they got all this mint. [00:27:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, anyway. [00:27:50] Speaker A: Yeah, but I know exactly what you're saying. And, you know, if I. If I was around somebody who had a can. I want a can. Yeah, right. [00:27:56] Speaker B: I still pop a lid. [00:27:58] Speaker A: I have not in many years. And I can't, because if I do, it's over. [00:28:03] Speaker B: Well, I'm. I practice on other things, like my shaving bowl. I gotta drive out in the morning. [00:28:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:28:11] Speaker B: You know, but. But here. Here's the thing with that, though. You realize in thumping the can that you'd be back. Yeah, right. [00:28:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:23] Speaker B: I realize what my limits are. And there's another reason that I don't go to a clubhouse by myself. [00:28:31] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. [00:28:32] Speaker B: I don't. You know, because people that I take to the clubhouse with me know. [00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:39] Speaker B: Not only that, the guys in the clubhouse. Who owns the clubhouse. [00:28:43] Speaker A: No, that's right. [00:28:44] Speaker B: Because I've had chance to share my story with them, some of my story. [00:28:48] Speaker A: And it's important to do that. So they will hold you accountable, too. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Exactly. And when you go into a one percenter clubhouse and they're holding you accountable, going, you want a water Mountain Dew tonight? They know. You know, then there are several things that have been accomplished. One of them is God's will. The other one is that accountability. But in doing that and knowing, okay, this is what Rob, Batman, whatever this is, this is. This is his trigger. [00:29:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:21] Speaker B: You know, now I can sit down at a dinner night with somebody right beside me, has a beer across the table from me, has a mixed drink, and it doesn't bother me. [00:29:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:31] Speaker B: I'm not tempted with that. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:29:34] Speaker B: I'm nothing. But at the same time, I'm also going to make sure that that temptation doesn't get to me, because I have built this foundation and realized that my faith, through what I've gone through, has grown because I've relied on Jesus and I've relied on the things that I learned in recovery to build on. [00:30:01] Speaker A: So I believe it's important to be part of a program. Right. We've talked about that, and it's even better in my mind to be a member of a church that supports a program. [00:30:25] Speaker B: Amen. [00:30:26] Speaker A: Right. [00:30:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:27] Speaker A: If your church. And this doesn't mean, look, if a church doesn't have a program of its own, that's not a terrible thing. It's not. It's. [00:30:35] Speaker B: No, no, no. It's not. It's not. We're not saying it's a requisite for. [00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah. It is absolutely not a bad thing. But if your church does have a program. [00:30:42] Speaker B: Right. [00:30:42] Speaker A: And you're in the midst of trying to get clean. [00:30:46] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:30:47] Speaker A: The church body that supports that program is going to help you. Right. [00:30:52] Speaker B: Amen. [00:30:53] Speaker A: They're, they're accustomed to what that looks like. [00:30:58] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:30:59] Speaker A: My church, we have two recovery pastors. Right. We do celebrate recovery. [00:31:06] Speaker B: Good. [00:31:06] Speaker A: They walk with people every day. [00:31:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:12] Speaker A: Right. [00:31:12] Speaker B: Amen. [00:31:13] Speaker A: And they, again, if you don't have that program, that's not that. Your chat, that your church isn't bad. [00:31:19] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:19] Speaker A: I'm not saying that, but I'm saying if you're in recovery, you need a church body that understands where you're at. [00:31:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:31:27] Speaker A: Right. We have recovery pastors that are in recovery. Right, right. They know where you've been. [00:31:33] Speaker B: Now, at the same time, if you're in recovery and you're in a little country church somewhere that, you know, may not understand what recovery is, about, explain to them what your weaknesses are beyond, be accountable, be transparent. But at the same time, that's part of confession. [00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:53] Speaker B: Now, in that confession, you're not reliving those things, but at the same time, you're building the people around you to understand how to help disciple you. [00:32:04] Speaker A: That's right. [00:32:05] Speaker B: And by the same time, you may be also building a program to be able to disciple somebody else when they come in. [00:32:12] Speaker A: That's right. [00:32:13] Speaker B: So you got a little congregation out here on the other side of possum Orchard, let's say. And now I've just pulled something out of the air. I don't know where possum Orchard is. I think it's down off Chicken road in Lebanon. I don't have a clue. Anyway, there's a little 15 congregant congregation. There's 15 people in this church. Right. And you've been going to church there trying to get clean for a year and a half. Right. And you walk in and say, look, folks, I need your help as a church body. [00:32:40] Speaker A: That's right. [00:32:40] Speaker B: To recognize what's going on when member number 16 comes in there and he's struggling with something, and they can go, hey, why don't you go over here and talk to Batman? Because he understands what you're going through. [00:32:51] Speaker A: That's right. [00:32:52] Speaker B: And the next thing you know, the church body is building around the two of you to be able to hold you accountable, to be able to support you, encourage you, and pray for you, and walk through life with you. One of the biggest misconceptions that we have and what causes the divide between clean time and recovery is believing that we can do it by ourselves. And the minute that we isolate, the minute that we think, oh, nobody else understands what I'm doing. Hogwash. Hogwash. [00:33:25] Speaker A: That's right. [00:33:25] Speaker B: Because I lived it for 20 plus years. I lived that. I put people through the muck because of that. I manipulated, I lied. I stole. I did a lot of things that I shouldn't have done, but because I was doing it on my own and I was hiding it from the people that I knew could help me. Yeah, but the minute that we realized. The minute that I realized that the things that I had done, the things that I was doing, I needed help with and that I allowed people to come around me. Now, my family wanted to be around me the whole time. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Yeah. You didn't want to be around them. [00:34:13] Speaker B: I didn't want to be around them. I pushed them away. My family wanted to help me. They didn't know how I don't shortfall them for that. I don't hold that against. [00:34:23] Speaker A: And you know what I mean? I would not either. But if you have somebody you love going through addiction, go to a meeting. [00:34:34] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:35] Speaker A: Just go listen. [00:34:36] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Listen and try to understand. [00:34:39] Speaker B: Yes. [00:34:40] Speaker A: And continue. I mean, and there's Alan on. Right. You go. There's tons of. Tons of resources, but, yeah, go to a meeting. [00:34:47] Speaker B: There's also. There's also things in celebrate recovery for that as well. [00:34:50] Speaker A: There is. Right. And. And that's why I just. I'm just like, go to a meeting. [00:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:53] Speaker A: Because I think if you go to a. Just a n. A celebrate recovery, if you go to a couple meetings and you want to know, like, how do I help? Like, how can I be there for them? [00:35:04] Speaker B: That'll tell you. [00:35:05] Speaker A: It'll start to open your eyes. [00:35:07] Speaker B: It will. [00:35:08] Speaker A: Right. Well, listening to other people's testimony, listening to their story of what they've been through. [00:35:14] Speaker B: Yep. [00:35:14] Speaker A: And how many times they tried to get clean or, you know, just go listen. [00:35:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:21] Speaker A: You know, and when I was talking about churches, I'm not saying if your church doesn't have it, to leave your church. [00:35:25] Speaker B: No, absolutely right. [00:35:27] Speaker A: No. Because, you know, your church is there for a reason. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Amen. [00:35:31] Speaker A: But I would also say one night a week, there's got to be someplace that you go two nights a week, every night of the week, whatever it. [00:35:36] Speaker B: Is, you can find a meeting pretty much 24 hours a day, seven days a week. [00:35:40] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. [00:35:41] Speaker B: I mean, there's a meeting for addiction somewhere in your immediate area within ten minutes. Right now. Right now. Right now, yeah. [00:35:50] Speaker A: Guaranteed. [00:35:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Even in Lebanon Gallatin. You know, there's. There's a meeting close. [00:35:55] Speaker A: Doesn't matter where you're at. [00:35:56] Speaker B: It doesn't. It doesn't. [00:35:58] Speaker A: Just like when you said, you know, you went to Oklahoma, there was a meeting. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:01] Speaker A: Right. [00:36:01] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:36:02] Speaker A: Matter where you go, it doesn't matter if you. I travel for work, so I can't know. Yeah, there is a meeting everywhere. [00:36:08] Speaker B: Everywhere. Everywhere. And it's. It's. It's. There's all the cliche sayings about it only works if you work it and, you know, one day at a time and keep coming back. And all these things, you know, you heard all these things. And, you know, I'm a friend of Bill's and I, you know, all these different things that we've. That we've heard throughout the years and over the years about recovery, and they're true. Yeah, they're true. [00:36:33] Speaker A: You keep hearing them because they're true. [00:36:35] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. God only works if you know him. [00:36:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:43] Speaker B: Sin only leaves your life if you deal with it. Addiction only becomes recovery if you work it. [00:36:55] Speaker A: Amen. [00:36:57] Speaker B: And I don't think there's any two ways to beat that horse or skin that cat. [00:37:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:03] Speaker B: It only works when you allow it. [00:37:06] Speaker A: To work and change your heart. [00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah. That's part of allowing it to work. [00:37:13] Speaker A: It's part of allowing it to work. But I also think sometimes people are, like, not truly heart changed and they're trying to force. I'm working the steps. Right. I'm doing right. You know. [00:37:26] Speaker B: That'S true. That's true. You know, they're one. They're wanting, they're one different results from. [00:37:35] Speaker A: We live in a society of instant gratification. [00:37:37] Speaker B: We do. We do. [00:37:39] Speaker A: Right. [00:37:40] Speaker B: Yes, we do. [00:37:41] Speaker A: And nothing about our walk with God is instant. [00:37:46] Speaker B: Nothing right now. [00:37:49] Speaker A: He can, in an instant, if you open your heart, change your life. [00:37:53] Speaker B: Amen. Amen. [00:37:54] Speaker A: But that's not when it gets better. [00:37:56] Speaker B: No, it's not. [00:37:57] Speaker A: That's when it gets harder. Right. Right. It's like the old adage, and we've talked about this before. Right. I'm not going to pray for patience. Right. Because what's going to happen if I pray for patience or if I pray for courage? [00:38:09] Speaker B: There's going to be a test that figures out how much of it you got. [00:38:12] Speaker A: God's going to give me an opportunity. Opportunity to show patience. [00:38:15] Speaker B: Exactly. Or courage. [00:38:17] Speaker A: Or courage. Right. He's going to create a situation that I have to be courageous through. [00:38:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:38:22] Speaker A: Or he's going to create a situation that I have to be patient. Oh, you want patience? We'll see if you got it. [00:38:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:31] Speaker A: Can you handle what you're asking? [00:38:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:36] Speaker A: It's the same. [00:38:38] Speaker B: It is exactly the same. It is. So how do you want to land this one? [00:38:43] Speaker A: Well, I think, you know, everything we've talked about has been amazing. And, you know, I think the way to land it or, you know, to close is just to reinforce how important accountability is. [00:38:59] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:38:59] Speaker A: It's not. Let me just say this. You looking in the mirror and talking to yourself is not accountability. [00:39:05] Speaker B: No. [00:39:07] Speaker A: Right. You have to be open and honest. [00:39:12] Speaker B: Mm hmm. [00:39:13] Speaker A: Sometimes with perfect strangers. [00:39:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:39:16] Speaker A: Because it's gonna be easier to be open and honest with perfect strangers. [00:39:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:20] Speaker A: And then you got to be honest with the people you love. [00:39:22] Speaker B: That's true. That's true. That's part of the steps. [00:39:24] Speaker A: It is 100%. Which is why I said it. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:27] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:28] Speaker B: It is. [00:39:28] Speaker A: And so beefe. Allow yourself to be held accountable. If you want recovery to work, put your faith in God and nothing else. [00:39:44] Speaker B: Nothing else. [00:39:44] Speaker A: Right. That doesn't mean I don't do this and I don't do that. It says my faith is in God. 1st 1st now, I'm going to rely on my family, I'm going to rely on my church. I'm going to rely on my friends that will help get me through it, not my friends that are out doing it still. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:05] Speaker A: Change your venue, change your playground, change your players. But I'm going to look to God first in every step of my recovery. And if I look at God first, I'm going to have faith. [00:40:20] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:40:21] Speaker A: And I'm showing my faith by doing that. [00:40:24] Speaker B: Yep. And the thing about it is God's going to show you how to keep your side of the street clean. [00:40:28] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. [00:40:29] Speaker B: You know, I can't keep the leaves out of your yard, but I can rake the leaves in my yard. [00:40:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:38] Speaker B: And when we allow God. [00:40:43] Speaker A: To show. [00:40:44] Speaker B: Us the things that we need to build our faith, the things that we need to strengthen our relationship with Christ, the things that we need to to go to people about to be accountable with, that's when recovery begins. [00:41:02] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just want to add one thing, because I think it's important. If you're new in recovery, three months, six months clean, it's kind of like a baby Christian. Right. They want to run out in the world and tell everybody the story. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:18] Speaker A: And sometimes people who are fresh in recovery have got this new this new sense of wealth, this new sense of pride, and they want all of their friends that are in active addiction. [00:41:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:31] Speaker A: To hear that same thing, and they jump right back in with them. [00:41:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:36] Speaker A: Please don't do that. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Please, please don't. [00:41:39] Speaker A: Please don't do that because you're not strong enough yet. [00:41:42] Speaker B: You're not. And that's where your sponsor, our accountability team or person or whatever, should be coaching you through. And if they're nothing, then you're not fully submitted to a sponsor or an accountability person or team. [00:41:59] Speaker A: Yeah. If they're not holding you accountable. [00:42:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:01] Speaker A: You're not being honest with them. [00:42:02] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Because if you're being honest with them, they will hold you. [00:42:06] Speaker B: That's exactly. That's what they're supposed to do. That's what they're there for. [00:42:09] Speaker A: You know, I was an accountability partner for a guy, and and I told him, like, you need to call me every morning, and you need to call me every night. I'm not gonna call you that's the thing. [00:42:22] Speaker B: That's the thing. [00:42:23] Speaker A: I'm not going to chase you. You're responsible for your recovery. I'm here to help. [00:42:29] Speaker B: If you want the recovery, you have to put the skin in the game. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:33] Speaker B: If you want to be free of that addiction, you have to put that work in. [00:42:38] Speaker A: That's right. [00:42:38] Speaker B: It's not on me to get you clean. It's not on me to see that you recover. It's on me to hold you to the standards that we have agreed to so that once you start this recovery walk, that you remain in this recovery wall. [00:42:54] Speaker A: That's right. [00:42:54] Speaker B: But it only works if you work it, not me, because I've already worked it. And it's still working for me because I'm still working it for you to make it work. You have to put the work in. [00:43:05] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. [00:43:06] Speaker B: And so I've told sponsors that, you know, look, I'm not going to chase you. Now, if you. [00:43:13] Speaker A: If I don't hear from you for a couple days, I may send you a message like, hey, I'm. [00:43:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:19] Speaker A: What's going on? [00:43:19] Speaker B: But here's the thing, Rick. I was managing my addiction when I started recovery, but I still needed my. I was married. [00:43:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:28] Speaker B: I still needed my sponsor to tell me when to brush my flipping teeth. [00:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:33] Speaker B: Because I needed that much structure. [00:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:35] Speaker B: And I was managing at that point. [00:43:38] Speaker A: That's right. [00:43:38] Speaker B: I had a full time job. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:41] Speaker B: And I had a good job. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:45] Speaker B: I was doing well in my profession. I'm good at what I do. [00:43:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:51] Speaker B: I was doing well in my job then. I was managing my. But I still needed Danny to tell me when to brush my teeth. [00:43:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:43:59] Speaker B: Hey, can I take a break now? Yeah, go take a break now. Yeah, I'd call him. He got. I'm in a meeting. Can I call you back? [00:44:07] Speaker A: Here's an emergency. Well, I'm just wondering if I should eat lunch. [00:44:10] Speaker B: Yeah, can I. I'm gonna go eat lunch now, so. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, man. [00:44:13] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:14] Speaker B: I needed that structure. [00:44:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Now I needed about three or four weeks of it. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Well, that's right. It's not a forever thing. [00:44:21] Speaker B: It's not a forever thing. And don't think. Don't think that. My sponsor and I, we're still good friends. I see him on Facebook. [00:44:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:37] Speaker B: You know, I talk to him every now and again. [00:44:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:41] Speaker B: You know, it's not a daily thing anymore. But then again, I've got 16 and a half years of sobriety. [00:44:46] Speaker A: Right. But, you know, if you had some. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Feeling it'd be right there. [00:44:51] Speaker A: What's going on, Batman? [00:44:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:53] Speaker A: What do you need? [00:44:54] Speaker B: Exactly? [00:44:55] Speaker A: Don't be dumb. You know how this works. [00:44:58] Speaker B: I can't tell you how many times he's talked me off of a ledge. [00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:01] Speaker B: 16 years ago. [00:45:03] Speaker A: Right. [00:45:04] Speaker B: You know, but, but the thing is now, then, today in that growth, and that's what recovery is, is growth. [00:45:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:12] Speaker B: It's not an everyday thing that will continue for 16 years. It wasn't for me, let me say that. [00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:45:21] Speaker B: And for some people it may be five, for some people it may be two. [00:45:25] Speaker A: Who knows? [00:45:26] Speaker B: Who knows? But you're not going to find out if you're nothing. Trying to work recovery. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's how I would land it. [00:45:37] Speaker B: I love it. I love it. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Well, it's been an amazing talk. [00:45:42] Speaker B: I have enjoyed the day. I apologize for getting so emotional. [00:45:45] Speaker A: You should never apologize for that. [00:45:48] Speaker B: Well, that's a, that's a pretty, that's a pretty delicate time in my life. [00:45:54] Speaker A: No. And I looked. Thank you for getting emotional because I think it shows people like, look, this is real life. We're here talking about real life, real things and how God can help during it. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Yeah. Praise God that he's helping me. [00:46:12] Speaker A: Amen to that, man. [00:46:14] Speaker B: Folks, we appreciate you being with us. Thank you for sticking it out with us. And I want to say this. We end the show in the podcast show every time with reminding you of our email address of hellomadpastor.org dot. If you're struggling right now, if there is something that is causing a hurt habit or hang up on you to keep you from knowing what God's will is in your life, if there's an addiction that's standing in your way, please, please, please reach out to [email protected]. dot both of us have a heart for recovery. Both of us have a heart for seeing God's kingdom grow. And we want to be able to help you. Whether it's finding a meeting, finding accountability, finding a church, we want to help you. So please, please reach out to us, hellomadpastor.org. and in the meantime, we want to remind you to love God and love people.